How He Uses an iPhone & Makes Money Podcasting

Speaker 1 (00:00.078)
I still to this day don't like being on camera. In my head, I am the 22, 24 year old prime version of me. And then I look at myself on camera, like who the fuck is this old man? I don't recognize this guy. know, our first few episodes and stuff that used to get 25 to 50 views, that's 25 to 50 people who have actively gone out of their way to choose you to listen to. That's incredible. Cause you wouldn't stand up in front of a room of 25 to 50 people. know, most people have never done that in their lives. I see a lot of people focusing on things like audio still.

and asking questions like, you know, should I move to video? Like, bro, you should have moved to video years ago. But I think fundamentally what it comes down to is as harsh as this sounds, you're not that important. You're not that special, but isn't it a bit arrogant to believe that you're going to be the next viral superstar because someone else did it. You need to get over yourself.

Nitin, thank you very much for joining me. Yeah, this is a nice little, little sub. We're in your space, which we'll talk about in a moment. Let's get straight into it. what inspired you to start a podcast?

Mate, thank you for making the journey, appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:04.121)
Truthfully, I had a product that I was building or had been built, which is a directory of supply chain. Basically, it had about 100 odd people featured on there at the time. That's now up to a thousand. I was a nobody in our industry. I wasn't a known entity by any stretch. I needed to think of a vehicle that would get me in front of as many people as possible.

short of going out and trying to meet them all and shake their hands, right? Because at the time it was a passion project. It wasn't our main revenue source. And so I landed on the idea of like, why don't we start it off as a podcast and just get those guys that we want to do business with to appear in front of us, get to know us, get to like us, and then we'll see where it goes. And quite quickly, mean, 80 % of our podcast guests ended up doing business with us. So within six weeks of meeting us for the first time, right?

Um, I was like, hang on this, some, some, we're onto something here. Um, is that that truthfully, that's what got me into it. I'm not a, I don't really listen to podcasts. Um, uh, I, I like the comedy circuit. So things like the Joe Rogan stuff, the Theo Vaughan, the bad friends, that kind of thing. And I like the clips that come off that. Um, I like the, the fact that they all kind of feature on each other's podcasts and sort of drive their audiences to one another.

but that's sort of the more commercial mind in me looking at that going, I see what they're doing here. This is pretty entertaining, but I was never really a, a podcast listener. It was just, this looks like a decent vehicle to try something. You know, I'm a salesperson, man. can sit and talk to people. And the biggest barrier for most salespeople is, you know, get me in front of that person and they all buy from me. Yeah. And getting in front of them is the hardest bit.

It's interesting. You've come out from a completely different angle where a lot of podcasters I meet come out from the passion perspective.

Speaker 1 (02:56.544)
Absolutely. And for a lot of people, it's a vanity project, right? Yes. And I get it. I appreciate it. People have their thing that they want to do or their legacy or their mark they want to leave. And far be from me to judge that. just, yeah, it was not that for me at all. It was literally a case of how do I, with the least amount of effort, get the most amount of kind of outcome, i.e. brand recognition, boosting visibility, producing content for me to then recirculate out.

you know, which makes posting on LinkedIn 10 times easier cause you've got content to do it with. and getting FaceTime with people that I want to be doing business with, but they don't know who I am. And what better way to, cause I have a, a theory that I talk about my podcast and sort of talk about it a lot extensively to businesses that I mentor. in that when it comes to sales, people buy from people like them or people buy from people they like. That's it. There's no in between. There's no if, buts, maybes.

I either like you or I feel like I am like you is a relatability factor there or a likeability factor. What better way to establish that than to sit down and have a cup of tea or where you said we used to have beers on the podcast and stuff, right? But what better way to do that than to do that in a relaxed, informal environment and both parties get something at the end of it. And you know what? There were people that we met that we were like, Joe, I just, don't need your money that much. don't, we just didn't gel. This doesn't work. I don't want you to be a client. And that's kind

Yeah. So for those that don't know who are listening or watching today's, what was, what is your business in your industry that you, you, work, you were focusing on?

So I'm in the recruitment sector. run a recruitment agency, grew it, scaled it and ultimately failed it. Learned lot of lessons along the way. So REC tools is my platform. That's basically all of the different suppliers that supply into the recruitment industry from your front office, middle office and back office stop. And then the podcast, which is now effectively the product is a way for those businesses to get more eyes on their product. They get to sit with me. We talk about

Speaker 1 (05:00.482)
So I effectively play the role of their ICP and frame my questions and the conversation in that perspective. And you know what, for one reason or another, it's done incredibly well. I don't know whether it's because there's people around in the industry that maybe aren't as good, but mine, touch wood, is the biggest podcast in the recruitment sector by miles. So yeah, hopefully along with that continue. But I think it's because it's that relaxed, informal environment and, but yeah.

It's a very different approach, isn't it? Approaching someone saying, you come or you mentioned you're in sales, right? Cold calling someone and saying, I want your business as opposed to contacting a person saying, Hey, I love your story. I love what you're doing. Would you like to talk about it on a podcast? It's a completely different response. mean, you've seen the fruits of that.

Absolutely. Exactly. People don't buy from that. People just don't buy in that way. The truth is buyer behavior is very, very deeply rooted in psychology. People buy based on an emotion and then they justify that emotion to buy with the facts, not the other way around. So when you're a salesperson, which I was for years and you're drilled into your head to go, feature advantage benefit.

feature advantage benefit, find their pain point, find their pain point, but make $50 a day to speak to as many people as possible. The two things don't marry up. You've got to get to really understand your prospects that you, you know, and there's much better ways to do it. And what more, less soul destroying ways to do sales. And I think that's where we are as a, as a society now where actually everyone's has a pretty interesting story. Everybody's got something unique about them that makes them them.

And most people are happy to talk about it. So give them the platform to do that and you give them a little bit of value. They're more inclined to return that favor by doing business with you as long as the rest of it adds up, As long as what you're offering is something they need and they actually value it.

Speaker 2 (07:03.022)
How long has the podcast been going now?

So we put our first episode out in March, 2023 at the time that was with me and my old business partner who I ran the recruitment business with. I say that when the business failed and that kind of thing, the podcast had a bit of a sort of a genesis. So January, 2024 is when it was mine. I took it over. We went from 2000 subscribers at that time to where we are now. mean, we're filming in what? June, 2025.

And we're at 68,000 subscribers currently. Yeah. I'm on that a hundred K. want, I want to be the only person. Yeah. Yeah. He's on YouTube. Yeah. Um, and then we've, don't really look at the stats on Spotify and Apple, but overall we get sort of circa 4,000 streams and downloads per episode released to a week. Um, and yeah, I want to be the only person in our industry that cracked YouTube and gets the YouTube plaque. And I think at that point I'll probably stop.

YouTube is talking. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:04.782)
Walk away, might drop. That's phenomenal growth in just two years, right? To think, yeah, I don't think I've come across a story like that where...

There's a combination of things, right? it's not, I think what I put it down to is the fact that I've got incredibly intelligent guests who I have the pleasure of sitting down with and facilitate the conversation with. And there's no shortage of those. There's some incredibly intelligent people out there who don't have their own podcasts. So great, get them on, get them talking. And then that in itself, then...

brings variety and drives then more people to go, I've got value out of this. I need to be more around this. And then that way you can have a couple of episodes that aren't necessarily focused for that one particular individual, but the next one that comes out might be. And when you get this tuned in viewership, one of the things I'm really actually proud of is the fact that we've never had a, just a viral episode. So one particular episode with one superstar guest that brought a load of viewership in.

brought a load of subscribers in and then everything else was sort of plateaued. We've got a consistent viewership of between 3000 and 4000 streams and downloads day in, week in, week out per episode, which shows that the subscriber count on the subscriber basis is episodic. They're tuned in. I'm a big wrestling fan. I relay most things in my life back to sort of wrestling analogies. I've got my Monday night raw and my Friday night Smackdown, only mine's on a Wednesday.

And so Wednesday and Friday and they come in every week and they watch it. You know, and they listen to it and then they get on with their day.

Speaker 2 (09:49.748)
It's real organic growth, Without phrases thrown around a lot with businesses and podcasts, but it is true organic growth. Like I said, not having that one hit wonder.

That's it. That's it. That's what I didn't want to do. I didn't want to do that and sort of run around after a big guest and try and get them on board and, know, please help me launch this. Don't get me I've had conversations with some interesting people, non-recruitment related, you know, we've had, we had Holly Matthews on talking about sort of mental health and the struggles that she'd been through with losing her partner. We had Richard Parker on who was at the time bidding to be West Midlands mayor as a Labour candidate and eventually did win it.

So that was a big, big, like that was a local locally big win for us to be able to sit with like a high end politician and like challenge him on stuff. Um, you know, we've had some interesting guests and I mean, talks with very interesting people, um, you know, viral stars on Tik Tok and that kind of thing. But the core audience is recruitment and talent acquisition teams. And they want to hear from prominent people in the recruitment industry and talent acquisition. So I've got to say true to the audience because this for me isn't a vanity project.

Yeah, I love that. So let's go back to before you actually started the podcast and the moment we used kind of with, we're like thinking this is something that we should do. Was there any moments of kind of not sure any, yeah, imposter syndrome for lack of a better term before you started? Can you talk about that?

Absolutely. think the reality is that what are the stats? Something like most podcasts don't make it past episode eight or something like that. Seven yeah. or eight, yeah. And I get it. I do get it. It's a lot of work. And you start looking at it and going, I dropped this episode that you're really proud of. And then nothing. Sort of almost chucking it in the ether and it just disappears. You're watching it float away into obscurity and you're like, maybe I'm not very good at this. know, shit.

Speaker 1 (11:39.278)
So yeah, there was that. Um, there was a lot of the embossed syndrome thing. Cause I'm sat there going, I'm not a podcaster. I'm not, I'm not, don't, I don't like, still to this day don't like being on camera, which is bizarre for most people, but I don't like, you know, in my head, I am the, you know, the 22, 24 year old prime version of me. And then I look at myself on camera, who is the fuck is this old man? I don't recognize this guy and what's he doing?

because I think exactly

So I don't, but I think you have to train yourself to kind of stop for a minute, right? And go, the vanity metrics don't matter. And celebrate the little wins along the way. You know, our first few episodes and stuff that used to get 25 to 50 views, that's 25 to 50 people who have actively gone out of their way to choose you to listen to. That's incredible. That is incredible. Cause you wouldn't stand up in front of a room of 25 to 50 people.

You know, most people have never done that in their lives. You know, if you put out a mailer or mail campaign and said, Hey, we're running an event and I'm the keynote speaker. How many people do you think will really turn up? But they did. And more importantly, it's not a thing that they've done to get out of being on the phones at work or the admin day or whatever. They've chosen this for me, this is the most beautiful part of podcasting. People have picked your creative output.

to listen to or watch in their own time. They've invited you into their lives. You know, that's powerful. And actually really why, you you're not trying to be the next big, you're not going to be Joe Rogan. It's not going to happen. Stop measuring yourself with that stick and stop measuring yourself with the, do you know what? Most podcasts stop at episode eight or seven. I'm going make it to 15. Let me get to that milestone. Cause then I'm above 50 % of the other podcasters. And then you go, okay.

Speaker 1 (13:37.428)
Most podcasts actually only ever get about 200 views or listens or streams and downloads. So let me use that as my next milestone because now I'm in the top 30 % of podcasts. Measure yourself with accordance.

You've made some such good points there. I want to go back to what you said right at the top about this wasn't a vanity project for you and it is for most. That was my comment. This is the reason why most podcasts fail, stop, whatever term you want to use, are at those seven or eight episodes because they're not getting Joe Rogan numbers. They're not getting Diaries of Zia numbers. like, what's the point of doing this? Well, actually the point of doing it isn't to get the gazillion downloads. The analogy you use there is so true. If you could get 20 people in a room and

have their time for half an hour, 45 minutes, one hour, most people don't get that opportunity. You just wouldn't. So don't dismiss that. And this is so true for whether you're starting a YouTube channel, whether you're starting a podcast, those small numbers, it matters. It's engaged people. People are actually lucky as they've given you their time, their personal time. No one's paid them to be there. They're not getting anything else out of it.

No, exactly. In a monetary or financial sense. So that's something to be valued and held onto and then use that as your kind of springboard for growth.

You use that as your motivator to continue and carry on, And you know what? You may never break a hundred views per episode or a hundred streams per episode. Who cares? And this sounds really harsh, but I think there's two points within that, is the first is like, you've got to look at the why as in why did you set this up? Because if this was set up as a vanity project, then yeah, getting 20 views or 20 streams is going to upset you because in your head you've created this like, you know,

Speaker 1 (15:22.902)
I've got really interesting stories to tell, but no one actually cares. And that's upsetting. So you've got to think about your why. And fundamentally you've got to be like, well, actually I want to start a podcast for a variety of different reasons. know, for some people I know, and I've had numerous guests and always start with a look, what do want to get out of this? Right. What are we trying to drive here? Trying to drive numbers to your website. Well, what do we, what do we want to get out of this? And then I can play that persona. And I've had people go, do you know what? More than anything.

In fact, there was one person who said this to me. was like, if I could go back and he was like, look, my granddad was one of the most fascinating people in the world. Best at what he did. was a tool maker. Because if somebody could present me with a video of my granddad in his prime doing what he was known for, that to me is worthwhile. So he was like, for me, what I'm doing now is coming on your podcast. It's not a, want to drive more numbers to my business and this and the other.

It's something that my kids and my kids' kids can look back at and go, that was dad. That was Aigwando. Look at him. He's there. He is in his prime before he lost his hair and went all gray or like, you what I mean? Or put that weight on. There he is in his prime or there she is in her prime. Look, I'm so proud of that. And that might be the motivator, right? And that's cool. But I think fundamentally what it comes down to is as harsh as this sounds, you're not that important. You're not that special, right? None of us are. We are all special in our own unique way.

what he loves. That's it.

Speaker 1 (16:50.318)
But isn't it a bit arrogant to believe that you're going to be the next viral superstar because someone else did it? You know what I mean? Yeah. If you can do it, then I can do it. 100%. You need to get over yourself.

I think the why, as you said, is the key here. A lot of people, we talked about imposter syndrome and, know, should I be doing this? Am I good enough to do this? I think not everyone is different, but the majority of people have those thoughts, whether it's recording video onto camera. You're not the first person I've heard as a videographer saying, I don't like being on camera, right? Even though you appear on camera several times a week, you've got 60,000 subscribers on YouTube. So that's normal, but I think

The people that get too caught up in that, they're doing it for themselves exactly as you said. It's about them. for me, and I don't want to speak for you, but for me, starting a podcast was not about me. It was about what can this do to help other people? yes, was it a vanity project? Maybe a little bit, but the crux of it was I've got information to share that I think can help others. So at the end of the day, what I look like on camera doesn't matter.

Yes, I do look back and think, no, I don't look at myself. I don't want to hear myself.

Hey, this is what we are. Right. This is the good Lord made us. Whether it's on camera or not, that's how everyone else sees us. Right. So that for me was the, how to get over that barrier. That's a good point. whether you like it or not, that is what you look like. Right. That is what you sound like. That is what you behave like. And unless you're going to change all of those things, get over yourself because you've got something valuable to share. And like you said, the why is important. Absolutely. The why is important. You know, and look, there's nothing wrong with it being a vanity project.

Speaker 2 (18:05.324)
Yeah, right. Because-

Speaker 1 (18:32.782)
Just don't let the vanity metrics kick your ass. Look at the positives within it. 25 to 30 people are only got 25, 30 streams. 25 to 30 people found you interesting enough to spend time listening to you. A lot of people don't get that.

100 %

Speaker 2 (18:48.258)
Yeah. And I did a video recently about, or as a post about, exactly this, about how podcasters, content creators in this modern age are chasing those numbers, right? They're chasing those vanity metrics, thinking, right? And this is the crux of it, thinking that that's going to lead them to monetary rewards. And actually what the data actually shows is that just as you're saying there,

Having 10,000 random people listening to your podcast or watching your videos is not going to be appealing to a potential sponsor or an advertiser compared to if you had, for example, and this kind of goes back to niche, having a niche audience as well, right? You could do a podcast on, I don't know, everyday life. could...

You could, you could talk like Joe Rogan does, right? One minute, an interview, neuroscientist next minute. So it's a, grappler next minute. It's a, it's a, someone else who talks about religion. You could do that and you might have some random following, but if you had a small audience of 50, 100, 200 people who were all, I don't know, into, into, into Nike, you know, high top trainers, right. And that's all you spoke about. Who's a potential shoe company going to be more interested in sponsoring that random audience or people that they know.

are interested in their products. So actually having that smaller audience is not a bad thing, especially if you want to monetize, right?

Yeah. But I think, think again, you've got to think about what is your route to monetization, right? Should I tell you how much I earn on YouTube? Bear in mind, we get 3000 to 4000 streams per episode and I've got 68,000 subscribers. I earn anything between 25 pounds to 68 pounds per month. Right. That's it. They don't pay unless you're in the millions and the millions of views. They don't pay.

Speaker 1 (20:41.248)
Spotify won't monetize you unless you're A, based in the US, but B, you've hit a amount of criteria.

10,000 downloads per episode still something crazy isn't it?

It's high. It's very, very high. You're not going to make a living being a YouTuber or a podcaster. But if you've got something that you're trying to promote or sell, and you use the podcast as a vehicle to boost your own brand marketing and get FaceTime with those decision makers, they're the ones that make money. Cause that's what I did. That's exactly what I did. And that's what I continue to do. You know, to the point where now the podcast is the product people pay to come on the podcast.

And then the other stuff is a kind of a nice to have almost. Right. But that took a while to get to that. That that wasn't always the plan to start with, you know? So I think you've got to have that kind of clear mentality that unless you're planning on, you're not going to win a sponsor straight away. You might do. Hey, and some do, some do. But you're not going to get a sponsor straight away. So don't beat yourself up by it. It doesn't mean you're any less. It's the football analogy, right?

It's sort of 99 % of youth grassroots, youth team football, footballers don't make it. Only 1 % actually make it onto a, know, a premier league championship or league one, league two pitch. 99 % of them don't ever make it. So the likelihood is you're going to be in that 99%. Right? So don't start sitting there being like, I'm going to get an endorsement deal. I'm going to do this. I'm going do that.

Speaker 1 (22:17.71)
Because those kids do it because they know that they go in knowing that 99 % of them aren't going to be in the, aren't going to make it to that end goal, but they do it because they like it. It's a passion. They enjoy it. And do know what? If it all comes off and at the end of it, I make a living out of it and I can pay my bills because of it and I can get to live my dream and make money. Hey, that's a nice to have. But if you go in with the mentality of, know, Oh, everyone, I've seen everyone make it on YouTube and I'm more fascinating than them. So I'm going to do it.

You stop. That is not the person. And there will be people that will happily take your money. And you know this and I know this. There will be people that will gaslight the ass off you, make you feel like, no, no, no, you could do this. And all they're looking at is the fact that, yeah, you're going to pay me for the next six months until you get fed up of it. Don't see the results. I'm going to blame you and then you can walk away. And I made six months revenue out of you. Just don't get caught up in that.

Yeah, I agree. So talking about monetization there, you mentioned one. Thank you for being honest with your numbers. I hear this from lot of creators, how YouTube, you're not going to make money on YouTube unless you are in the millions. So there's obviously YouTube monetization. Do you monetize your podcast in other ways and what are those ways?

Yep. So right now and only right now. yeah, so about this time last year, we went through a round of sponsorship and that was basically to fund the studio. So I was offering 10 blocks for X amount of money. We did four or five we ended up with in terms of sponsors that took us to the start of this year. There was enough money in the bank that I then reinvested in a studio to get it out and move in and have six months worth of like

the cost paid for. I'm now circulating a proposal, which is a lot more higher level because the channel's bigger, the numbers are there now to sit and be able to test out, justify, this is my figure. Yeah. And we're talking sort of a five figure sum for a six month period. Right. Right. It's a salary and it will be used as a salary for two more hires in the business.

Speaker 1 (24:26.126)
do I monetize it? Yeah. Because I've now at a point where my product is the podcast. So where my ICP are, you know, disruptors, consultancies, new entrants into the recruitment sector of the rec tech side or supply chain side who want to make a noise in the splash. They will then pay me an annual subscription to come on the podcast three times a year. And for us to have a detailed discussion about it, because I turned the podcast into a product. And I think it really, that's that come down to the fact that it was never a vanity project for me.

I genuinely couldn't care if tomorrow, well I'll say tomorrow, once I've got that, that, that once my goal and my target is I want that silver plaque, right? Once I've got that, if I land on something else and I have to wrap up talk and never do it again, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Okay. You know, it's, it's just, it's something I'm doing as part of a marketing activity, brand building exercise and a business development tool. Right. but that's what it is for me. And I get that for some people, most people it's a vanity thing.

or it's a passion project. So take the monetization mentality out of it. It's not going to work. You're going to disappoint yourself.

So sponsorship is kind of the main monetisation avenue that you're currently taking, which is, as you said...

and then charging people to come on the podcast. Okay. that comes through, that came through a load of collaboration and a load of, you know, it needs to get to a certain point, right? I think that the reality is that the platform is like consistency. So I can tell you of times where, I mean, I'm out in India, you know, dealing with like kind of family affairs and stuff like that. And I'm on this really, really slow, poor coffee shop wifi. And it's taken me six hours in this hot, no air conditioned like

Speaker 1 (26:08.974)
coffee shop to upload an episode onto YouTube because it needed to drop on that Wednesday. It needed to. Because I know that the algorithm and the channel likes consistency. A lot of people wouldn't do that. Oh, we'll just skip it this week. Oh yeah, no, we'll just skip it. We'll call it a season end. We'll take a break for a season. What mean? Does he send us take a break? Do you know I mean?

You want the brand, the recognition, the income, the sponsors, you want them all lining up for you, but you're only going to do it on your own terms. it's Christmas. I'm not going to release an episode. I'm going away for three weeks. I'm not going to release an episode. I'm burning out. I need to stop.

I think that's the difference there, right there, what you said is the difference between having that mindset of, know, I'm using this as a vehicle for my business as opposed to a passion project. And I think, you and you've kind of answered part of the question I was going to ask you next, which is, you know, what do you attribute to getting to this, you know, I call it successful, this level of success that you've had with your podcast. And you mentioned one thing there, which is I talk about all the time is consistency, right? You know, just showing up.

every week, however many times, or whatever pattern you've set that you are going to be consistent with. mean, can you think of other things and maybe talk a little bit more about what has got you to this point? Before we continue this conversation, I have to tell you about Orphonic. Ever notice how clear this episode sounds? Well, that's not the microphone or the recording device I'm using. It's because the audio in this and all of our episodes is mastered by Orphonic, my secret weapon for professional sound. Look, I get it.

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Speaker 2 (28:19.736)
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Yeah, think, yeah, the hacks, so to speak, make your thumbnails and bear in mind, thumbnails apply to both YouTube, but also things like Spotify and Apple as well, right? People buy with their eyes. We had this conversation off camera. People buy with their eyes. You're trying to convince them to click. Your thumbnail needs to be engaging, right? If you're the kind of guest, kind of guest, if you're the kind of podcaster like myself who likes to platform his guests.

Put your guests face central and front and center, you know, because their audience, you want their audience. That's, that's why you've platformed them. You want their audience. So put their face front and center. Unless it's a vanity project, in which case you'll find my face is going to be bigger than yours and every thumbnail and every thumbnail is going to kind of look the same. You know, catchy, catchy titles, know, detailed SEO description, SEO optimized descriptions in, know,

Don't just go, this episode's about this. Enjoy!

There's clearly a lot of thought that goes into this. You're thinking about what...

Speaker 1 (29:52.462)
understanding the vehicle you're trying to use, If you're going to sit in a car that's got self-driving capability, shut the door and go drive then, and it doesn't move and go, self-driving cars are crap. That's the same. You're going to upload a video onto YouTube or Spotify. You're not going to put a catchy title on it. Listen, I even go even further with like episode one, blah, blah, blah. Who the hell cares that it's episode one? Right. I don't count my episodes. I think I'm on 160 something.

I don't count them. No one cares. Nobody cares. Truth is nobody cares. that's the first. So the first thing you want to write is what episode number it is. Not the name of your guest or not the catchy title. You want to give space to that. There's little things like that, right? Yeah. If you're going to upload something onto YouTube and not put any effort in or upload it onto Spotify and Apple podcasts and not put any effort in the description in the, trying to attract somebody to press play.

Of course you're going to say, no, podcasting is rubbish. Doesn't work.

Play the game by the

Yeah, they're defined. There's plenty of information out there. And if you don't know enough about it, or you can't find it, reach out to people like Sanjay. Sanjay will give you that information for free.

Speaker 2 (31:07.126)
I have, it's already out there, it's on my channel.

That's it. To do it. It's out there to do. Look, I talk like this from experience. had a nephew start a podcast. Nephew and his mate started a podcast. It was a pro wrestling podcast. I was like, quite brilliant. Boys, they're really proud of you. And then it started with the inconsistencies. now we're tired. I can't buy a film this week. And I'm like, well, I've told you guys, why don't you film some stuff in advance? now we can't because we like to review shows as they happened. All right. Well, then you haven't got any room to...

not feel up to it. How are going to do a wrestling podcast that reviews Monday night raw, but not until Thursday? Because you can be asked and then sit there and be like, we're not getting the views. And I've gone, and I gave them a bit of a framework. try this, try this. Why don't you do this, pivot there, pivot that. And in the end, the result was that my nephew was like, look, this is just a bit of fun for us. If it turns into something, then we'll take it seriously.

And I was like, there's the problem. You're not willing to put the work, cause we're so used to seeing the end result. MrBeast wasn't born a millionaire with a million. He didn't, he didn't just open up his channel one day and go, a hundred thousand subs. a hundred million subs. This is easy. know, KSI and Sidemen and that kind of thing. They didn't just become a thing overnight. They didn't just sort of do it for a bit of fun. And then all of a sudden it caught on and then they

decided, we should take this seriously now. No, it's methodical. It's thought out. It's right. Where do I want to be? And let me reverse engineer that to what do I need to do? What are the bits that I've got to put in now? That's the key. So you

Speaker 2 (32:51.566)
It's like any recipe, you miss out a crucial ingredient, it's going to turn out...

I would just keep chucking things in the pot when I feel like it. If it turns into a Michelin star meal, then hey, so be it. I'll take the praise, don't make me do this. Then this is why most podcasts don't make it past that early stage because of people going in, not taking it seriously. But unfortunately then they waste a lot of money because there's not people like me and you who triage those people and only work with those who take it seriously.

There's people out there, listen, man, if you're willing to pay, I'll do whatever you want. I'll do your six episodes for you. I know you're going to give up. You'll fall over at the first hurdle, but I've got six months worth of pay out of this. There's more of those out there than there are people like us that will go, this probably ain't for you. And that's okay.

Yeah. I agree. think there's so many misconceptions about, know, I mean, I'm talking about podcasting, but YouTube content creation in general. And I think that's such an important thing is, almost, you like you used the football analogy earlier, right? A football academy or a club is not going to take someone who can't do the basics. Isn't taking it But can't even, there's a standard they have to meet, right? You have to, hey, go and...

Show me you can do X, Y and Z AND

Speaker 1 (34:13.742)
Kids aren't just running around the park and going, oh, you know what, if Arsenal scout me, then so be it. Right. Yeah. You know, not a single player in any major football team or even minor league team ever just got picked up off the street and went, you look like you could play football. I saw you at the park, mate. You need to come along. No. Not a single one of them. But, and then the same thing applies with this sort of this world, right? Yeah. None of these people were handed anything. No. It was all thought out and whatever. Let me ask you a question because...

You've been doing this longer than I have. You've obviously been around the evolution from podcasting being a audio predominantly based thing to now video and you take it very, very seriously, right? How long do you think before the podcast genre gets even more, not filtered down, because that's not the right word, but blurred between podcasts, shows and just content, like what is now on YouTube?

think we're already there. I honestly do think we're already there. mean, just look at Netflix now have podcasts, right? So if net people on Netflix, Disney are talking about it now as well. Yeah. So if all these big players are starting to look at this thing that started in someone's closet and then hold on a minute, there's something like you said, hold on a minute. There's something here, right?

There's a medium here. It resonates.

And it resonates. People are already, you can look at the data from YouTube. YouTube is telling us that people are, the majority of podcasts that I watched on the platform, I watched on TVs. On smart TVs that have YouTube apps built in. So people are now replacing their evening TV viewing or Netflix viewing or whatever you want, or streaming viewing, with putting podcasts on. And long form content has already taken off. I think we're already at the beginning of that.

Speaker 2 (36:05.294)
that era, but I think we're already here. I was at a podcast show in London just last month in May and we had Flight Story, Stephen Bartlett's company, they came into the talk and they were talking exactly about this, saying that the shift is here, but the biggest shift has to come from the creators, from us. We have to stop thinking small, like this is just a podcast, or it's just something small. We need to start thinking that, hey, this is a medium, this is content, this is the equivalent of the TV.

As well as the shift coming from the advertisers, I can't remember the stats off the of head, but was like 400 billion is spent on TV advertising, whereas in podcast advertising it's less than 4 billion or something like that. I can't remember the exact numbers. They're saying the people that are buying that sponsorship, you're looking at the wrong cow. You need to be spending your money over here because this is where people's eyeballs are. This is where people are building trust. You talked about it from building trust, building relationships with potential clients.

Like you said earlier, you've got someone's ear for 30 minutes, 60 minutes. You've built trust with that person, right? They're turning up every week to watch you, to listen to you. Like WWE, is it still called WWE? WWE, there's WDF when I used to watch it. Those fans, they show up week in, week out because they trust what they're seeing and they're bought into it. So yeah, to answer your question, it's a long way, but we're already here.

No, yeah, no, I agree. Completely agree. Yeah. Yeah. I'm you said that. Cause I see a lot of people focusing on things like audio still and asking questions like, you know, should I move to video? Like bro, you should have moved to video years ago. There is not a, yeah, but podcasts were, know, the truest form of podcast was audio only. And that's what it started off as. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And my TV used to be black and white back in sixties. And now it's HD, HD, like, you know, full color and all the rest.

So things evolve, times evolve.

Speaker 2 (38:07.01)
Yeah, this was an interesting discussion at the podcast show where there was a lot of discussion about video. again, exactly what you just said. Each their own, right? If you want to stick to audio podcasts, that's absolutely fine. If it makes your life easier, but the medium has moved on, right? The medium has moved on and there are going to be people that still buy vintage cars and that's all good, right?

your life is going to be made more difficult. You've got to pay, you know, for emissions charges and all of these, your life becomes more difficult. And it's the same with

Look, I get the cost is sometimes a barrier. Right. And I want to be abundantly clear on this. You've got an incredibly good setup, which I'm sure has run you up into the thousands. I still use a single shot camera from just that angle on an iPhone 14 Pro Max. Still. And we're at 68k subscribers and whatever. You don't have to keep, it's not a tech dick swinging competition, you know.

You don't have to, because you've got to think about what is it you're producing? Because actually if what I'm producing is giving value and people are watching and listening and subscribing and coming along on the journey, well, does it actually matter that it's not so flashy and it's not so this and it's not so that? I don't think it does.

We've all got a camera. We've all got a camera. We've all got a laptop. We've all got a phone. know, majority of people that are doing podcasts and I want to of switch gears a little bit and talk about this before we run out of time because we're a great conversation here. you you mentioned the tech and that's one thing I really admire about what your setup is. And I only know, I only realized this when I saw you at the Rec Expo in London and you were running the podcast stand there and we were kind of using the space with you.

Speaker 2 (39:55.168)
and I saw you set up on one corner and I was there with all my cameras and you were just there with your phone and a couple of lights and I was like, huh, that's really interesting. So you've kept it really, really simple so that it doesn't become an obstacle. It doesn't become a barrier. I'm imagining again, I don't want to speak for yourself, but

That's exactly what it is. Yeah. Right. Look, I don't want to spend money on equipment. Fair enough. I want to spend money on my wife and kids. Yeah. I don't want to be lugging loads and loads of equipment around. And fundamentally it's, I didn't want to be, you're into this stuff. You're more advanced in your experience and your skillset with this sort of stuff. Right. I have a real thing about, you know, these people that have got all the gear and no idea. Right.

I got married up there. We go hiking in the Lake District all the time. Nothing pisses me off more. I would rather see somebody who's walked, hiked up a mountain with jeans on and like, you know, the wrong type of shoes and is like in pain because they're like, fuck, I didn't bring the right things with me. Then what I see when you see people kitted out in their best, you know, north face, everything, they go and they take a quick picture and then they're in the pub. And that's all they're there for.

couldn't tell you where the nearest lakes are. I couldn't tell you where the nearest walks and hikes are. All the gear, no idea. And that's the same mentality for me. It's like, well, why do I need all this stuff? I don't. People are watching anyway. People are listening anyway. I'm open doors are opening for me anyway. And then when I get there with my kind of rinky dink equipment set up and they're like, this is hilarious. This is absolutely hilarious. You've got all these people that have invested and really spent money and you'll just say like,

I drive a 20 year old, beat up Mercedes. That's me.

Speaker 2 (41:42.606)
That's just so true. think people get caught up on that. We live in a consumerism society right now, especially if you're on YouTube. I watch a lot of tech YouTube and you watch videos and it makes you feel like everything you're using is outdated. You're using an iPhone 14 or whatever it is. The 16 or 17 is about to come out. It doesn't matter. What matters is the content. Does it do the job?

job. The iPhone records in 4k, right? And it can do 60 frames per second. Do I need that? I'm sat down with my guests. My hand is moving there. That's about it. Right. And you've seen the shoe cupboard, right? The studio is small. I ain't got room for three camera angles. I haven't.

One more Gini.

Speaker 2 (42:19.542)
You don't even need 65.

Speaker 2 (42:27.918)
Well we're here now right now, need to go.

I to go somewhere else. Yeah. That's it. I, you know, and, and I, at the time I was doing all my editing myself. I got, don't want to do it. I don't want to flick between like cameras and that kind of thing. So I'm doing all the editing myself. I've got way more, more commercially minded things to be doing. Let that stop me. And that's, that's, that's my thing is, that you don't need all the kit and all the, just get started. Do you know what? If all you've got is a little USB mic, right. And it's a mic that comes out of your headset.

Fair enough.

Speaker 1 (43:00.77)
and you've got your laptop camera, so be it. Because until you start, you're not going to know if people resonate. Then don't kick yourself when only five people listen or seven people listen because five, seven people listened. If me and you went out there right now in a city center and just started talking loud, would five or seven people stop to listen to you? Or would they walk past going, look at this mad bastard, right?

It's so true. It's so true.

stopped to listen to you. That's great! Celebrate that!

Yeah. And they're not listening to you because you're holding the best microphone or you're recording in 6K.

look at that crispness. I can see the scar on his face from when he had like, know, chicken pox when he was... No one gives a sh...

Speaker 2 (43:41.198)
Who cares? People don't. But then people do because this is why these things,

Who cares? Other people who are tech geeks. Agree. Do you who cares the, I've got a 20 year old Mercedes as an example. People who have got fancy brands, new cars and a lot didn't expect you to have a car like that. Yeah. Do you who rates it? My mechanic. Right. Oh boy. This is still, this got years in it. You're, you're, you're. Exactly right. I had to respond to it I do. Is that kind of thing? Like the only people who care about the stuff.

It's to fix for him as well.

Speaker 1 (44:17.646)
are the people who it means something to. Now, listen, if you're doing a podcast on podcasting and you're doing a podcast, you know, trying to encourage or trying to position yourself as a thought leader and a leader in your space, you do need the best mic. You do need the best angles. You do need the best lighting rigs and really take time and think about the setup so that the guest looks good in every single shot and that kind of thing. Of course you do. But if you're doing a podcast on fucking pottery, don't worry.

Yeah. Like I was saying, guests on your podcast, it doesn't matter to them. They want to get their message out. They want to reach your audience. And that's going back to what we were talking about earlier. This is the whole point, right? The why, right? It's you're using it as a vehicle and whatever tools you can use and keep your workflow simple is going to work for you. So talking about your production, we kind of touched this earlier. What does your production schedule look like? You still doing your own editing? Do you have a team? How often are you recording all of those?

No, so I'm very fortunate. Shout out to Tristan. He used to work for me when I had the recruitment business. When the business failed, I went out of my way to get everybody a job, make sure that they all had something to go to. Tristan was the one that I struggled to find something for. Web developer, doesn't interview the best, great guy, just can't represent himself very well. And so I kind of kept him under my wing and sort of used him for little bits here and there.

on a freelance basis, but now his competency is at a point where actually I trust him with, so he will do all my editing now. I simply just record the episodes and send them to him. He does all my editing, makes all the trailers, does everything for me. And now I've started to win work for him as well, so they can really push ahead in the freelancing game. But when I was doing it myself, mate, yeah, I mean, I would...

because I do all the school runs and as many as I can or after school pickups and stuff and do the bath time routines and the dinners and all that. So I do all of that, get the girls into bed and then it'd be like nine o'clock. I'd set the laptop up and I'd like, right, bash this out as quick as possible. So again, that's where like, you know, time became important, right? So I wasn't asked about multiple camera shots. wasn't asked about, you know, there's two things I was really fussed about. Number one, is it engaging enough at the start?

Speaker 1 (46:42.136)
to keep these people interested because we know we would like to scroll away. And number two is the audio good because no one wants to hear a scratchy audio. Nobody wants to hear like really up and down audio. You know, as long as those two things were right. That was it. Pop my things at the start, put the little logo bits in all that sort of stuff and they just export it out and upload.

So you started off with your own editing. I'm glad you mentioned the audio. are less forgiving with poor audio. can have, like I said, six

That's why I stopped using, that's why I had to get my own studio in the end. I stopped using where I was using because it was so echoey and people were starting to kind of be like, oh mate, your podcast used to sound great, but now it sounds like, it sounds like you're sat where you're sat sort of thing. It's not great. The quality of the audio is not great. And so eventually I was like, well, I can't have a podcast with poor audio. That's pretty, pretty poor. Like I know I don't care about much, but I don't care.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm borderline taking the piss out of people here. I'm going like, look at this.

So coming to now then, what's your recording schedule like? Do you batch record? How often are you publishing? Let's talk about the...

Speaker 1 (47:54.99)
So we release two episodes a week, Wednesdays and Fridays. I've got at the moment, seven episodes in the bank. So we've got a few lined up. I record around my guests in terms of when works for them. So this week has been a busy week for me and kind of within the industry. So this is the only episode I've done. In fact, no, did, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

to move things around to fit a schedule. But I do it maybe at least two podcasts a week in terms of recording. I'm constantly feeding it. I don't like the block day thing. Because I did that at the expo, the first one in Birmingham, we did that for two days back to back. It killed me. I did that at IHR in Manchester. It killed me. It's not fun. It's hard work. You can see it in my face and my questions. Towards the end, I'm literally just hunched and over like, I'm so tired. I don't want to do this anymore.

It's exhausting. Yeah. It's exhausting. So I like that. So you spread it out, but you do kind of have episodes in the bank. Yeah. You regular flow. have episodes in the bank, which is great. Are all of your podcasts in person?

They used to be all in person exclusively. And I think that was probably one of the differentiators. We've now started doing virtual ones because I've got clients that are based out in India, the US, Australia, Greece. So, you know, I can't expect them to. And again, it's the product, right? The product is the podcast. But I chose to try and again, differentiate it. So with those virtual podcasts, I sit in my studio.

So as far as that camera sees, it's me sat in the studio talking, talking, talking, and you as a guest are on a virtual screen next to me in the studio. Right. Rather than let's just record this Teams meeting. Right. And put that out as a podcast.

Speaker 2 (49:49.536)
Okay. So you're using the feed from your camera as your camera angle and then whatever software you're using.

use Riverside to record everything else. To use that. And put that out to the person. And then, yeah, the people watching are like, that's cool. So it's almost like, I kind of like how if I had more room in the studio, I'd have a proper screen and feed them through and that kind of thing. Like Ariel Hawani, how he does his. Yeah, well, like just any normal newsfeed where the guests there. I just thought it adds a bit of something. Okay.

Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Okay. So twice a week in person now starting to do virtual. There's one thing that you do, you kind of mentioned it just now, which I think should be happening a lot more with various other industries is doing podcasts at events. Let's talk about that because I think this is a really interesting concept and it's something me and my wife, my wife works in healthcare. She's got a podcast and we've pitched this to various health conferences about

it's doing podcasts, I think it's a great opportunity. When did that all start? How did that all come about?

Um, truthfully, it was because I was being asked by, uh, the recruitment agency expo about this time last year. Oh, do you want to exhibit? Do you want to exhibit? Do you want to exhibit? Now I'm like, listen, I'm a cheap bastard. I'm paying for nothing. Like I'll be there. I'd like to be there, but I don't know. I'd like, I don't think exhibiting is a good idea. It's not really what I want to do. And then again, because my podcast is my product and I want to sell.

Speaker 1 (51:28.376)
coming onto the podcast effectively, you know, through the platform. I was like, I have to be at the expo because all of my target customers are there. And I've got a handful of clients who want to catch up and want to, you know, they want to come on the podcast and I've gone, yeah, well, can you come to Coventry? No, I can't. But I happen to be in Birmingham. How can we not do it there? So I sat down with the organisers and it was like, I've got a lot of people who want to sit down and actually record a podcast.

I can either do it at the Weatherspoons across the road outside of the event, or I can do it in the event. If I do it outside across the road, I don't get to be at the event and I really want to be at the event. What can we make happen?" And then they went away and they came back and were like, we can create a podcast zone. Fortunately, unfortunately, I was the only one who was confident enough to be like, I can podcast. So they were like, we've got no one signed up. It's just you. Can you man it for two days? And I was like, yeah, cool.

and make it work. And it did. We made it work great. They had a dedicated playlist on the channel and that kind of thing. But then in doing that, RECFEST. Hey, I do this. Do want me to come and do it there? Yes, please. Again, people pay loads of money to exhibit there. I'm going for free. IHR, people pay money to exhibit there. I went for free. Team Network Conference, went for free. Just giving a bit of your time. Podcast as a vehicle.

because it's a vehicle, it's not my vanity project, has opened up opportunities for me where now you saw in London, that whole thing wouldn't exist if I hadn't have gone, hey, listen, you know, and that's not me being arrogant, but you know, but, for me, the beauty of it is that everyone's benefited. We've all benefited from this because I don't want to do two days in London podcasting all day, but I did absolutely want to walk past and be like, listen, anyone need equipment? I've got equipment. can rent it. You know, it's all here anyway. You might as just use it.

You know, I'll help you get set up or whatever. But what a great thing to be able to stand and look at and be like, I pioneered this.

Speaker 2 (53:34.048)
Amazing. Yeah, it was great. I was there with my employer. had a couple of slots, which we recorded two episodes. And again, it was just a win to be able to go there and not only just connect with people that you would have probably connected with anyway, but actually get to sit down, have a proper conversation, and then put that out there for others to benefit from as well. Because all of these conversations are going on at these expos and these events anyway, and they could be beneficial to so many more people. That's it.

Yeah, a lot of these talks and keynotes, I've been to conferences where they're not even recording them. Right.

That's bizarre. again, if you're in a industry where there is a big exhibition that happens and that kind of thing, and there is no live podcast that happened in, if you're the one of the few podcasters in your niche, in fact, you don't even need to be one of the few. There's loads in recruitment, right? There's loads in the recruitment industry. I just happened to be the one that put my hand up and went, do want to come and do this? Yeah. I think it's great. It's a value exchange, you know, because again, if you're trying to monetize every little thing, it ain't going to happen.

I couldn't be like, no, you gotta pay me for my time. I've got the biggest podcast. I was like, no, no, let's do it. I can enjoy this shit. Let's do it.

There is a bit of passion there.

Speaker 1 (54:46.926)
Of it is. You wouldn't do it if you didn't enjoy it. Listen, my life is blessed. This is what I get to do for a living. But that's not because I started off with the mentality of, I think I've got something important to say. I started off with the mentality of, I want to do as little work as possible and get paid to do it. How do I do that? I've got this platform. How do I monetize that? well actually if I did a podcast and I could do this and then that would open this door and that would open this door.

Exactly that.

Speaker 1 (55:15.68)
Let me take this seriously for six months and let's see if that starts to pay off. it's paying off. Right. I want to something. Then six months after that, go in, hang on a minute. What I thought was the product and what I thought was the lead magnet is not that way. It's the other way around. The podcast is now the product. I need to flip my, my offering to make that the product. Great. That's worked. What's the next evolution? You know what mean? Rather than just sort of being like, listen, if it takes off, then, you know, then we'll look at it.

Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 1 (55:45.132)
Yeah. Yeah. If I'm the next Mr. Beast, then cool man. That's great. But if not, then I'm okay with that. No, you're not. Cause you're going to refresh every two minutes to the impressions rate to see how many people watched it. Right. Yeah.

vanity metric. Love this. This is so much value here for people listening. if someone's, okay, let's boil it down to, I come across people all the time. I'm sure you do as well who want to start a podcast, right? They feel like they want to start one. If someone's watching this or listening to this and they're thinking of starting a podcast, what's the first thing you recommend that they do?

That's a great question. What's the first thing? Be honest with yourself about why you're doing it.

Speaker 1 (56:28.674)
I sound like I've given a lot of grief around the whole vanity project, vanity project thing, right? I don't believe it's a bad thing to have a podcast because you feel like you've got something important to say and you feel like you've got some value you'd like to give or you just like to be able to say, here's me and my prime kids. I don't think that's a bad thing. anyone who wants to start a podcast, my advice is always do it. Absolutely do it, but just be realistic about expectations along the way and

Really think about what is you want to achieve because the reality is that if you are in a situation where you're like, I want to make money off my podcast. You absolutely can. But you then have to think about, okay, for me to make money off my podcast, how am I going to do that? YouTube won't monetize you overnight, nor will Spotify and Apple. So you're have to give a lot of time and energy to do that.

You're not picking up a sponsor before you've released your first 10 episodes. So you've got to put a lot of time and energy into that. And no one's just going to click and sit and go, here's my story. I'm a 48 year old man in Huddersfield. Let me tell you my story. No one cares. No one cares. So you're not going to make money off that. You could make money, but you've got to figure out how am going to make that money?

then reverse engineer that and go, now, what do I need to put in to make that lifestyle or that thing that I want actually happen? Because it's not just going to happen. You don't go viral overnight in content creation. It doesn't happen.

see the tip of the iceberg don't they? see the Mr. Beast, they see the Stephen Bartlett's or the Joe Rogan's of this world.

Speaker 1 (58:10.784)
So they should, right? Right. I have a theory on this. We see our generation grew up on the, you know, we would see the Rocky Balboa montage. Right. That's what we, the focus of the film would be that. Right. Is Rocky training, he's getting ready for it. Big fights coming, but he's getting ready. Look at all he's had to put up with. He couldn't pick that up first. Now he can pick it up. You couldn't get up those steps first. Now you can do it. Yeah. And then we get the payoff. Then we watch him beat Clover Lang. Right.

Then we get him avenging the death. That's what happens at the end. The generation that we currently have, and this bleeds into what we witness, we only ever see the end product. Here's MrBeast, biggest YouTuber in the world. I've never heard of him, but he's the biggest YouTuber in the world. Here's Soy, he's got the most streams of the song ever. Gangnam Style. never heard of him. Here's Joe Rogan. I kind of remember this guy, but I've never heard of him.

he's got the biggest podcast. don't know why I couldn't tell what he does. You know, here's Stephen Bartlett sold his business for X amount of money. he must be amazing then. We don't see the journey stuff anymore. We don't see the here's Beckham, his, you his, his, your, skulls and your nevels coming through the Academy and these guys were on the bench and now they got to the, we just see the end product. And everyone wants to be the end product. So it's not their fault. It's really not, not their fault. Agreed. We brought up on the Rocky montage.

And I think we need to, as people in this space, we need to point people back to that.

The interesting thing about what you just said there is that those montages, watching the process, that was the best bit. That was the best for me. was best bit of the movie. To see that journey and this is...

Speaker 1 (59:56.526)
created in that way. It was presented in that way. Right now things are created and presented in the way of these guys are amazing. They've made it. Right. Very, very few KSI fans will tell you about any of their first few episodes. Very, very few KSI fans will tell you that Deji was actually more popular at one point. Right. Cause they just don't know. Yeah. They jump on the bandwagon and they're oh yeah, these guys are amazing. Sidemen man. Yeah. Yeah. Wicked. Yeah. But like they didn't just wake up one morning and go, we should start a channel called Sidemen.

We'll get a hundred million followers and it will be the most famous people coming out of London. That didn't happen. So stop looking for that and start looking for the, where do I have to actually put my energy and my efforts to make sure that I'm consistent with this and it's enjoyable for me along the way. Cause if you ain't going to enjoy it, you ain't going to do it.

of it. Let's wrap this up then. What's the future for you podcasting, REC talk? We already know you want to get to the 100k.

The only goal I have, genuinely the only goal I have for the podcast is I want to get to the 100K. Everything else with, listen, you can plan the best life in the world and have all the things ready and everything lined up and a global pandemic can come and wipe it all away, right? You can go into business and grow it, scale it, think that nothing can touch you and then turn around and be stabbed in the back by your business partner.

I've got a goal. don't have a direction I'm traveling in. The universe will put me where I'm meant to be. I'm happy to just be that little leaf that flows around. Cause you know what? Ultimately we're not all that fucking special. We're not. We're a momentary speck of the grain of sand on a massive beach on this rotating planet. It doesn't matter. Who cares? Don't know. Just enjoy it. What's next for me in podcasting and whatever I have to do to spend more time with the kids. That's it. Beautiful. That's it. Beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:01:52.694)
Thank you. We said it all. Thank you, buddy. I really appreciate it.

No, I appreciate this mate, thank you.